The Big Interview: With 'Big' Ron Atkinson

A long affinity with Aston Villa was established by spending three years with the claret and blues from the age of 17, although he never played a first-team game.

But the-then not so 'Big Ron' actually started out as an apprentice at Wolves in the mid-1950s, when the club were dominating English football, writes Craig Birch.

With no European football, Molineux became world renowned for their 'floodlit friendlies' - they were one of the first to install the facility - against the top teams from around the globe.

Their classic meeting with Honved in 1954 was broadcast live on the BBC where, after they came from two goals down to win 3-2, they were dubbed 'the champions of the world.'

Manager Stan Cullis was regarded as a pioneer through his methods and early use of sports science but, as Atkinson reveals, some of his tactics were not quite so subtle.

He said: "People forget I started out at Wolves, not Villa, and I was an apprentice there when they played Honved, who were the best team in the world at the time.

"They had Ferenc Puskas and other players from the Hungarian team that got to the World Cup final and had just murdered England twice.

"The match was played in December at Molineux and it was bucketing it down with rain, but Stan Cullis had us kids watering the pitch!

"Puskas was trying drag-backs but the ball wasn't moving and people like Eddie Clamp, Ron Flowers and Billy Wright were flying in with tackles.

"That was just before the European Cup started and Wolves were a magnificent side in the 1950s. Perhaps they came along at the wrong time."

Atkinson never got to play in Cullis' star side, or Villa, and ended up a one-club man at first-team level with Oxford United.

But the wing-half did get used to flying up the leagues, skippering the side to promotion all the way from the Southern League to the Second Division, over 12 years at the Manor Ground.

Then just 32, he went back into non-league to take up his first managerial post at Kettering Town, his work over three years earning him a move to Cambridge United.

That was where the fun started, as Atkinson recalls. He said: "I went into management at a low level, which you can't see happening with the top players of today.

"Could you see Wayne Rooney going to Port Vale? That's what you should do, I learned more in my first six months than in 15 years as a player, as you have to think of everybody's problems.

"Every manager I knew, at the time, had come up that way and the one thing you learn to do is work the transfer market.

"When I was at Kettering, and then Cambridge, I pulled off two of the best deals of my career. True story, the first time I swapped a player for a lawnmower!

"Years later, I went back to Rockingham Road with Albion to play a testimonial game. I stepped out onto the pitch and it was still there.

"This player played three games for them, but up and down the lawnmower was still going. That should have had a testimonial!

"I was with Cambridge before that and Barry Fry, who is a great character and a good mate of mine, wanted someone off me.

"What he didn't know was that we were desperate to get him off the wage bill. Two weeks later, he rang back. He said he was hopeless and asked if we could take him back!"

With seven years experience under his belt, the time was right for Atkinson to work in the First Division for the first time, in any capacity.

West Brom gave him that chance, beating Elton John's Watford to the punch, and it proved to be the making of both parties for some time to come.

A team built around ' the Three Degrees' - Brendon Batson, Laurie Cunningham and Cyrille Regis - had title ambitions as real as the Baggies side that pushed Wolves close in 1954.

Atkinson still believes they would have been champions had it not been for the weather in 1978-79. In the end, the club's 59-year wait carried on and on until today.

But he said: "Even now, West Brom fans come up to me and tell me how much they appreciated that side. It was a great period for the club.

"We were exciting to watch and I think, at the time, we were everyone's second favourite team, apart from Wolves supporters!

"We had some terrific players and I think we would have won the league the one year, had it not been for the great freeze. We were in Europe virtually every year.

"I have some great memories over the three years I spent there and then I got the chance to move onto Manchester United."

Old Trafford came calling in 1981, with the Red Devils seeing him as the man who could provide the spark that had been lacking under his predecessor Dave Sexton.

It wasn't 'the Theatre of Dreams' then, far from it, and Atkinson brought Bryan Robson, a British transfer-record £1.5million signing, with him from the Hawthorns.

Providing the club's captain for the next 12 years was not good enough, nor where the two FA Cups in five years that made him United's most successful manager since Sir Matt Busby.

In the end, Atkinson got the sack "for finishing fourth" the season after in November 1986, with speculation Alex Ferguson was coming from Aberdeen to replace him months-long.

He said: "When I went to United, it was different than taking the job now, because I had left a better team. That's a fact.

"Like now, there was no European football for them then. In fact, they had qualified just once in 15 years since winning the European Cup.

"The first thing I said to the chairman, Martin Edwards, was that we needed to get that back and we did, by winning the FA Cup twice.

"I used to have a running joke with Bryan Robson about who had tapped him up to leave Albion, every time he came back from international duty.

"The one time, he came back and said 'gaffer, it's United.' I told him 'Robbo, the only way you are going there is if I am!'

"Then I took the job and, sure enough, he's calling me from the England camp in Switzerland, so it was him who tapped me up! I told him that's not how things are done.

"I have been dead lucky, I have worked with some terrific players, but he was by and large the best. He made all of the difference at United.

"The season when things really started to go wrong, I got the dreaded vote of confidence. I should have known what would happen.

"I turned up one day for training and my boots weren't out, or my assistant Mick Brown's, and there was a message to go and see the chairman.

"Mick asked me 'why do you think he wants us?' I said 'I wouldn't go asking for a raise today."

Few could have known Sir Alex would then preside over the most successful period United have ever had - or are ever likely to have - for the next 26 years.

Atkinson was one of many who didn't envy David Moyes' chances of emulating 38 trophies and, lo and behold, the former Everton boss was axed after 10 months in charge.

That made Moyes the first United chief to be dismissed since 'Big Ron' with Louis van Gaal now turned to, like Atkinson was, to bring the good times back to Old Trafford.

He said: "I have been doing a lot of stuff for Manchester United this season, their television station is a terrific operation.

"I have done a few games this season and we did documentary about when we played Barcelona when I was there.

"That was one of the big games in their history, at that point, when we were 2-0 down and came back to beat them three, with Bryan Robson getting a couple.

"Then I left there and went to Atletico Madrid down the line which was, at the time, on a level footing with United. Where they really changed was commercially.

"Sir Matt Busby owned the club shop when I was there and he only used to open on match-days. Now they are a massive export concern.

"That can, sometimes, affect the status of the manager. If they looked like they were going to qualify for the Champions League last season, I think they would have kept David Moyes on.

"Everton are a big club, but he will tell you himself that he was surprised by just how different a club it was at United.

"I thought David was unlucky, to be honest, and I was surprised that he didn't get a bit longer. The amazing thing was they had one of the best away records in the league.

"There's been a lot of teething troubles this year, but I can imagine the five-a-side games in training being brilliant!

"They have had a bit of a defensive crisis, which hasn't been helped by the fact they let three experienced players go in Rio Ferdinand, Nemanja Vidic and Patrice Evra.

"Then two of the lads you thought would have stepped in, Chris Smalling and Phil Jones, have been out injured so you can see why it has happened.

"I am sure they will get it right and, when they are on fire, there is some terrific talent at the club. The manager has got a terrific record, it's some CV!

"Louis van Gaal has been that long in the game that I don't think the outside pressures will bother him.

"I think they will definitely finish in the top six and they have no European distractions, which could well leave them fresh enough for fourth."

As Moyes considers his next move, if he was taking a leaf out of Atkinson's book he would be angling for his old job with the Toffees.

He took no notice of the adage 'you never go back' by returning to Albion although, this time, he had to go into the Second Division to do so.

He said: "When I went back, it was a completely different club than the one I had left six years previously. But, over the next 18 months, I started to get a decent team together.

"I went to the chairman, the late John Silk, and told him if he gave a new contract I would get them out of the Second Division. He told me to do that first.

"I got a call from Atletico Madrid and they were offering me silly money to go there, but I would have seen the job through if I got that contract.

"Two years later, Bobby Gould got them out of the Second Division and got a new contract - they went down to the Third!"

Taking Colin Addison as his assistant, a new life in Spain beckoned for the sun-loving boss, but it didn't take long for affairs to turn sour.

Notorious president Jesus Gil took just three months to pull the trigger, with Addison "stabbing him in the back" by taking Atkinson's job.

He headed back to England and took charge of Sheffield Wednesday in 1989, which was where he rebuilt his reputation after a shaky start.

He said: "I was looking for three years somewhere - and I got three months! I remember one Sunday night I was trying to sign Jurgen Klinsmann from Stuttgart.

"I came in on the Monday and Colin Addison told me he had been offered my job, no one from the club ever told me I was sacked.

"Despite everything, it was a great experience and I always intended to go back, Valencia and Sevilla offered me the chance.

"In the meantime, I went to Sheffield Wednesday. I got them promotion from the Second Division and the League Cup. which is just as well because I got relegated in my first season!

"Every game we played was like a big game, in a very competitive league, with teams such as West Ham. We were on a mission to bounce back up, and the cup was a bonus.

"I think that if we hadn't got involved with the cup run, we'd have won the title. We were the best team in the division and we had some very exciting games."

Villa had always been unfinished business for Atkinson, having been raised in the city of Birmingham. It was like coming back home when he arrived in 1991.

This time, he came as close to that elusive top-flight title as he never would, coming second to old club United in the first season of the Premier League, 1992-93.

The 75-year-old and Kevin Keegan remain the only two English bosses to finish runner-up in the rebranded top-flight.

But no one was ever safe around chairman Doug Ellis and their deteriorating relationship finally imploded 18 months later, earning Atkinson his third sacking.

He said: "I had been offered to manage Villa a few times over the years and, having been there as a kid, it was something I wanted to do.

"We had good players - an experienced bunch and a crop of younger players behind them.

"I always said 'Robbo' was the best player I ever worked with, but the best value for money signing was definitely Paul McGrath.

"He cost me £30,000 from St Patricks at United and then he was there at Villa. Week in and week out, he was our best player.

"I still believe if Dalian Atkinson hadn't got injured at Christmas we would have won the first Premier League in 1993. We were flying at the time and he missed a big chunk.

"We had experience and youth, but the defence was solid and that's a vital part. We won the League Cup in 1994, so it wasn't a flash in the pan.

"Then Villa were having a blip, but it was only temporary. The chairman wanted me to buy players and I told him to save his money.

"I had plans to bring in Les Ferdinand and I'm sure I would have got him, plus another star who would have lifted the club.

"Doug was as 'Deadly' as everyone thought he was. On Saturday, he was on Football Focus calling me one of the top three managers in the country. He sacked me on the Tuesday."

That would be the last time Atkinson would ever push with a team to be the best in the land, as the era of United began.

The rest of his managerial career would come as a trouble-shooter with the strugglers, starting when he was appointed at Coventry City in 1995.

He said: "Coventry told me straight they couldn't offer me the sort of deal I had been used to, but I went there and took Gordon Strachan with me as assistant manager.

"We kept them in the league but they were always going to struggle each season, although we tried to keep on improving the squad.

"We even agreed terms with Wolves to sign Steve Bull and Jamie Smith, a deal that me and Gordon thought was done and dusted.

"By all accounts, 'Bully' had said cheerio to Wolves. Then he didn't turn up for his medical. I guess he had second thoughts."

Notions of Atkinson retiring started when he handed the Sky Blues reins over to Strachan the following year, becoming the club's director of football.

But, in November 1997, he was given a second shot at the Wednesday job he had left acrimoniously to join Villa on a short-term deal.

He led the Owls to safety but was, surprisingly, not rewarded with a permanent contract. Maybe that was their way of getting him back.

With his stock rising as a pundit, that appeared to be it for Atkinson, until a desperate Nottingham Forest came calling for the final four months of 1998-99.

There would be no salvation of Forest and he called time after a 2-0 defeat at Villa on April 24, retiring at the end of the season.

He said: "I went back to Wednesday in 1997, when they were bottom. We survived and I fancied us to push on, but I didn't end up staying. It wasn't money, it was politics.

"To all intents and purposes, I had agreed a full-time deal with ITV after that, but I got a call in Barbados when I was on holiday with my wife.

"It was from Irving Scholar, the chief executive of Nottingham Forest, telling me how they wanted me to get them out of trouble.

"He faxed me an offer, with what if I would get if they stayed up. I signed it, then I looked at the league table, and it was like the Titanic.

"With how far they were behind, I wondered if they were going to be relegated by the time I got home!

"We had Arsenal at home first, I went out at the City Ground, waving to all of the fans before I went and sat down.

"I looked around and saw Patrick Vieira, Marc Overmars and Nelson Vivas. I thought 'why are we in trouble with these players?' Turned out I was in the wrong dugout!

"The biggest low was at home to Manchester United. We were 4-1 down and Ole Gunnar Solskjaer comes on for them.

"He somehow scores four goals in the last 10 minutes and we lose 8-1. I was that down I jumped straight in the car, went home and then to bed.

"The next morning, my wife is trying to wake me up saying 'Ron, Ron, it's nine.' I went 'not that bloody Ole Gunnar Solskjaer again!"

Comfortable with the ITV and highly-rated in his work, Atkinson suddenly blotted his copybook irreparably with great controversy in April 2004.

He resigned after a making a racial remark about Chelsea defender Marcel Desailly live on air, believing the microphone to be switched off.

Transmission had indeed finished in the UK, but the comment was broadcast to various countries in the Middle East.

It's still a touchy subject and Atkinson remains defiant he's not a racist. As he said to Tessa Sanderson on Wife Swap, 'I can't apologise anymore.'

He added: "It was the stupidest thing I have ever done, but it was all so badly handled. I should have been suspended for a month, and that should have been that.

"Des Lynam said in his book I should have sued ITV. It was off-air and I was actually quoting somebody. What I said was that 'so-and-so would have called Desailly.'

"But I thought 'it's happened, let's get on with things.' If anything, people have been even friendlier towards me since."

Atkinson can take plenty of pride in what he will always be remembered for, being a manager, staying at the top for so long during an era where there was plenty of good bosses about.

He said: "I had a lot of respect for all of my opposite numbers and there was some smashing managers around in my time.

"I used to really rate George Graham at Arsenal, Lawrie McMenemy was still working wonders with Southampton and John Lyall was doing a good job in charge of West Ham.

"Liverpool were Liverpool, whoever was in charge, and Sir Bobby Robson was with England. The one thing we had was great camaraderie.

"And then there was Brian Clough. People ask me who was the best you competed against and it had to be him.

"But he could be an awkward so and so, which won't surprise anyone. Years later, I interviewed him for a television programme.

"He had a major problem with drink, no two ways about it, but I got the call from the producer to go down and do it.

"Now 'Cloughie,' in his pomp, was brilliant but I didn't know what to expect. I walked in and the first thing he said was 'oi, big head, you've got an hour.' He hadn't changed a bit!

"Hours later, we were talking about how he would handle modern-day players. He told me the first thing he would say was 'what do you want seven cars for? You can only drive one.'

"That was 'Cloughie' all over. He ruled with an iron rod and that would be no different today."

Atkinson insists there wasn't one of his post at nine clubs over 28 years - with two spells at West Brom and Wednesday - that he didn't enjoy. And he feels he could still manage today.

He said: "I couldn't pick a favourite, I had some great times at a number of different clubs, particularly when good things are happening on the pitch. That's what it's all about.

"I have a lot of discussions about what football is like now. There's a lot of talk about the players being fitter now.

"I have never seen players fitter than Bryan Robson, Remi Moses, Arthur Albiston and Carlton Palmer. There was a big difference in the pitches.

"People think a tackle is just for fisherman now, tackle now, but they were ploughing through mud and taking heavy challenges then.

"The midfielders and wingers flew through it and I was lucky enough to work with some of the best around during my time.

"I had Robson, Strachan and Steve Coppell at Manchester United, then Tony Daley later on with Villa.

"As a manager, you knew they would go at the defenders whatever the conditions. Fans loved that side of it, so I am not sure the game has changed for the better."

He's lived a happy life and will likely see out his days at his holiday home in Dubai, with the message: "I always say I left school at 15 and haven't worked since.

"Football has taken me all round the world and I've met some great people. I've enjoyed doing a job that I would probably have done for nothing.

"I have survived for 75 years already. You just want to enjoy life."

'Big' Ron Atkinson was talking to Craig Birch during a sportsman's evening at the Cleveland Arms pub, Stowheath Lane, Wolverhampton.