Sacked worker did not want to ‘lie’ over transgender pronouns, tribunal told
The employment tribunal heard evidence from a man who was on the same training course as the sacked worker.
A former trainee prison custody officer said he was not happy to call transgender prisoners by their pronouns because it was a “lie”, an employment tribunal has heard.
David Toshack has taken security firm GEOAmey to an employment tribunal, saying he was sacked because he refused to use “incorrect pronouns” for transgender prisoners.
Stefan Weir, who is employed by GEOAmey as a prisoner custody officer at Dundee Sheriff Court, was on the same training course as Mr Toshack and they became friends.
He told the tribunal Mr Toshack made the comments during a training session on January 7 last year after Sarah Harvey, who was leading the class, said it was the law that transgender prisoners should be called by their pronouns.
Mr Weir said: “She was putting quite a lot emphasis that it is the law and GEOAmey policy that we that we should call transgenders by their pronouns.”
David Hay KC, representing Mr Toshack, asked Mr Weir whether he remembered Mr Toshack saying anything about that.
Mr Weir told the tribunal: “He stated that it is not the law and that he was not happy to call transgender people by their pronouns because it is a lie.”
He said there was then discussion between Mr Toshack and Ms Harvey about the issue and that Mr Toshack said it was company policy but not UK law.
Mr Hay asked whether Mr Toshack said anything about what he was or was not prepared to do to, to which Mr Weir replied: “He said he was not prepared to lie and call a transgender a pronoun that is the opposite of their sex.”
He told the tribunal that Mr Toshack’s tone of voice was “normal” during the discussion and that he used “firm but respectful” language.
Mr Weir said that Ms Harvey then asked Mr Toshack to leave the room with her and the class soon heard that he had been dismissed.
He told the tribunal that he accompanied Mr Toshack to his car and that he seemed “shocked and upset”.
Mr Toshack, 51, a former soldier from Fife, says he was dismissed by GEOAmey in January last year for refusing to call trans prisoners “she” or “her”.
He says he was dismissed with immediate effect on his final week of training after being asked to leave a training session where he said he would only use sex-based pronouns.
In his employment tribunal claim against the security company, he says he was unlawfully discriminated against.
Michael McLaughlin, representing GEOAmey, asked Mr Weir whether he remembered Ms Harvey saying something along the lines of even if people disagree with the rules as a result of their personal views they should put these personal views aside and treat everyone with dignity and respect.
Mr Weir said he did “vaguely” remember her saying that.
Mr McLaughlin also suggested that Mr Weir was not objective and impartial because of his friendship with Mr Weir.
Mr Weir replied: “I am saying what I have witnessed and seen.”
The tribunal, which is taking place in Edinburgh before Employment Judge Amanda Jones, continues.
